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Hello, my friend, and welcome to Cancer Can Give! in this special series of the Simplify Cancer Podcast, we share inspirational stories of people who went on a grueling journey through cancer and yet, they found their own way to live, grow and give in a way that helps others. Today, it is my absolute pleasure to be talking to Heather Hawkins, ovarian cancer survivor, she is a health advocate, the most adventurous spirit I know, a beautiful person doing good out in the world that advocated for health, for hope, and living beyond your comfort zone! In this conversation, we talk about hope, choosing adventurous life after cancer and making a positive difference out in the world.
Heather Hawkins: Adventurous Spirit on Facebook
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Adventurous Spirit by Heather Hawkins on Audible
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Heather, I have a bit of a thing for a first sentence in the book. In your book, the first sentence is: Sometimes our paths in life take us in completely unexpected directions. It’s certainly true, right?
For yourself as well, and I think when cancer makes an entrance into your life, and for you Heather, a decade ago, your life really took this really unexpected turn, right? Tell us how did all of that play out?
Yes, my goodness, it was 2006, December 2006. I was a busy working mom, I had a 14-year-old daughter and 11-year-old son, and life just is so full of school after school activities, dropping kids off, working hard at the office. I did start to notice this fatigue creeping in and then also a little bit of abdominal bloating, and I was 41 at that stage. I remember thinking, this is probably either menopause creeping in, or I’m overdoing things. Or maybe it’s middle age has spread that I need to get a little bit more fit, a bit more active. Then throughout that Christmas time of December 2006, and then going into 2007, there was some more symptoms that then started to occur.
I was off to the toilet more often than not with frequency with urination. I’d eat small amounts and start to feel really full quickly. My abdominal bloating just continued to grow. It also continued — for every woman at that particular time of month, you do get bloating, tiredness, but when it persisted between periods, that’s when that intuition kicks in. You think, this is not right. This is not normally how my body operates. I thought, I need to go and have a chat with my GP. I’m so glad we have a great relationship with our GP, that I could feel confident to go and talk with him.
I didn’t feel embarrassed. I knew that he would take me seriously just talking about a raft of very general symptoms. Then he would take me seriously and also seek to find answers and have that investigated. That was really the beginning of my fear that this massive shift in my life going from a completely normal world, to suddenly hearing those two words in the same sentence as my name those two words of ovarian cancer.
So many interesting things you said that I want to pick up on, you talked about watching out and listening to your body, things that you knew what not right, and you picked up on those patterns. Then it is about having that courage to speak to your treating doctor, and to bring those things up and to get those things looked into. It’s so vital, isn’t it?
It certainly is and it’s about understanding that this is not how my body normally operates and to sit down with your doctor and to go through all those things that you’re concerned about. I found it really helpful. I wrote out a list so I could go in there. You’re so emotional at that time. If you can refer back to your list, you’re not missing out on things that perhaps are going to be really important with helpful with your diagnosis. Talking that through, he said, “Yes, that does sound serious, I’m going to send you straight off to have a CT scan.”
I was fortunate enough to get into the radiology clinic that afternoon and had that CT scan. I found that really quite confronting that I was taking off my normal clothes, and putting on that white hospital gown, suddenly transforming from this normal life into being vulnerable and raw, and just thinking, wow, I did not expect to be here. Just so anxious, what that scan was going to reveal. A massive shift. Then getting the results that afternoon back in the doctor surgery. Hearing him say those words, then thinking, wow, where does this lead to? What is the prognosis here? How are we going to manage this? With all those questions, as just racing up inside, don’t they?
Absolutely, Heather. I was so also touched by what you brought up as this transition into a different life. You’re exactly right, you put on this gown. It’s like your pathway into a totally different universe where all of a sudden you have to learn this new language and everything that you know changes. To touch on the fact that you said, you went in prepared you made the list of questions because you knew that it’s a crazy time, and you’re likely to get emotional. I think that’s such a great tip as right for whenever you go into the unknown, and whether that’s being of course, around cancer, just health in general is to go in with the list of questions so that you don’t forget in the heat of a moment, which is so easy to do, right?
It is, it’s very easy to do and even also to take someone with you, your loved one or a friend, and that they’re able to ask those questions, perhaps that you forget, or and maybe if you get really emotional and find it very difficult to ask those questions, they can step in and help as well. It is, there’s just so much to sift through, to digest isn’t there. I find perhaps writing notes from that consultation as well. I know with the perhaps my first meeting that I had with my gynecological surgeon that I was referred to after that initial consultation with my GP, you come away and your head is spinning because you’re thinking okay, this now means surgery. How extensive would that surgery be?
Yes. What day are we booked in? Being able to just write down all those things. I love having like a plan in place when, when things are uncertain. You’re not quite sure how they’re going to play out. If you know that you’ve got a plan in place a structure that just helps you cope emotionally so much better, doesn’t it?
Exactly, because you got something to fall back on. It’s so true what you say about not forgetting the little things, because I know, I remember speaking to my urologist. We were talking just about the same, the very same thing about forgetting or just missing a little detail. He told me about a study which I don’t have the details for, but apparently there were studies done around and I believe it’s not to be quoted here, but it was suddenly like that we forget about 80% of what we hear on that first visit to specialists treating you for cancer, because you’re just in that you’re frazzled and you’re in that state of mind. It’s so vital. As you say, take someone with you to take notes so that you have something to fall back on because it’s just such a difficult time, isn’t it?
It really is because you’re you’ve just been taken off in your day-to-day pathway into some new pathway and that it isn’t a very confronting time and I think if you can surround yourself with that support some real clarity. I know our when our imagination gets the better of us that’s when we become so anxious, don’t we and overthink things and think worst case scenario at times. If we’re able to get that clear explanation and that knowledge and understanding of what the treatment is going to be, what surgery will entail that will help us cope so much better.
Also, you don’t feel alone do you if you’ve got somebody with you in those consultations and also in the lead up to surgery. I just remember being so grateful that my family came in on that morning of surgery to have them there, that I could give them get to that last little hug and then be wheeled off to surgery. That just meant so much. It gave me a lot of strength to face that because that is a big day, isn’t it? When you you’re heading off to surgery, you’re relieved that the day is here, aren’t you, but you’re also just quite worried about what the surgery is going to reveal. I remember feeling very torn between those two things.
Absolutely. It’s so beautifully put in the sense that you want that little bit of normality. It’s that waiting. I find one of the most challenging things for me was that constant waiting. You’re waiting to be called up to the oncologist, or you’re waiting to go up to your specialist, so you’re in between things. That’s when you want someone with you, so you can talk about something other than cancer. You can talk about your just normal, everyday life. Heather, when it comes to those difficult moments, because we all have them, right? I want to check in with you, when you look at your cancer journey, you think back on that, what was the most difficult or one of the most difficult moments for you?
I probably have about four difficult moments hearing. Hearing that initial diagnosis that is tough stuff, digesting that. The second hardest thing I think was telling my parents and also telling our children that evening. Trying to find the right words to say, trying to keep it together and not cry too much knowing that that would really upset my parents and my children. Also wanting to share in very practical terms about my diagnosis and what the plan was so that they could hold some positive things to take away from that phone call or that that sit-down time with the family.
The other time was as I was recovering, and I would be going for my checkups quite regularly, going into the waiting room and sitting with other women and chatting with them and hearing their stories. Most of them had ovarian cancer as well. It would really affect me deeply because mine was found stage one, I was just incredibly fortunate that it was found in time before it had spread. Surgery was 100% successful. A lot of these other women, sadly, were undergoing several rounds of chemotherapy, they were going back for more surgery, their prognosis was not looking great. I would come away to so devastated, really upset, trying to battle with survivor guilt.
Thinking what else can I do? I felt quite helpless. That’s certainly has been a very big motivating factor in what I do as an advocate these days. That that was quite confronting. I do find that each year now I when I go back and I have my results, read out to me, you still find yourself transported back to that very first time, don’t you you’re sitting on the edge of your seat, just waiting to hear the news and hoping that it is all going to be good still. For me, I don’t want to be transported back there. I want to keep growing and being well and healthy and trusting my body and moving forward. I mean, I accept if it does return, then I will face that, but it is still a confronting thought. Those are probably about three or four things that I found the most difficult throughout that journey.
Thank you for sharing that. For me, I also find that I have a slightly different perspective on that. I do feel in some weird way, and I don’t want that does come off strange, but I do feel that reconnecting with those early days of being diagnosed. For me also the time when I knew that my cancers’ come back for me in a in a strange way. It’s important reminder of what life is today and I’m not talking about having a perfect life or anything like that. I know that just how close we come whatever stage or phase you’re at, but we’ve lived it we stood or some of us stand on the edge and you looking down into the abyss and one of the things that you realize that for me I think it’s the it’s that we only have this moment today to live our life to be at our best.
Give what it is they can we can to move forward and that’s one well the reason why I really asked you about the most difficult moments and thank you for sharing that isn’t to dwell on it and, but I feel like also those times, they often push us towards an important change in our lives, right? A change where you, you go towards exploring things that you might not have done before. What was that like for you, because you had those changes that made you made you realize certain things about yourself and where you wanted to go?
Yes, because I’ve come to realize that often those low points in our lives are our turning points. That they can be where a big shift occurs, whether it’s in our way of thinking, perhaps it’s our understanding of life, or our goals and dreams, perhaps we need to get a bit fitter, which was definitely the case for me. One of the biggest shifts for me was being grateful. I felt that it was my second chance at life. I was going to make the most of it. My oncologist said to me, however, what will one of the things that will really help you with your recovery is perhaps to do a little bit of exercise. I thought, okay, I can do that. I can now go for gentle walks and things.
Then I decided to sign up and become a volunteer surf lifesaver, my family were really involved. I did have a fear of swimming out beyond the waves and realizing that’s what I had to do if I was to pass successfully. Suddenly, I had those experiences of being out beyond my comfort zone, but finding that I was okay, that I could cope, okay, and learning to trust my body and get active and fit and the joy that that brought and sharing it with other people as well. That really opened up my eyes to physicality again. That gave me the confidence to sign up for that four-kilometer Fun Run. That has just set me off on this whole new world.
That’s beautiful. That’s taken you to beautiful places doing this incredible what ultra-marathons in this beautiful and remote parts of the world. How did you get there? You had the fun run? Then how did you transition to towards the north poll?
It’s a wonderful journey, because I thought 4k Oh my goodness, how do you run 4k that is that’s a long way. I had two and a half weeks to train, and I roped in my two children to run at the local park didn’t even own proper running gear. I just had an old pair of runners and my gardening shorts to put on. Like everything in life, if you start, you make that decision, and you put yourself out there, and I had a go at running four Ks in one go. I wasn’t very successful that afternoon at the park. Pretty overwhelmed. I made a good excuse as soon as I saw a water bubble or to stop and drink.
I went back to the park that next day and the next day. When that four-kilometer race turned up on that Mother’s Day, I got out there and I ran, and I loved it. From there I signed up for there’s a fantastic event called the city to serve, which is a 14-kilometer run. That was in August, which was about three months after that 4k run. Then from there, I signed up for a half marathon. It’s like these steps that I’m taking you know to get sign up to an event that slightly longer than that will give me time to train up so that I can stand on that start line feeling fairly confident and not too nervous about taking that distance on. Then I ran a marathon the next year that was in 2013.
It was actually at the start of the Melbourne marathon. I was catching up with a friend in 2014. He just happened to mention about marathons run on ice and he said if you’ve heard about these, they are so crazy, and you reckon about doing those and so I thought I’m going to look that up. I spent the whole Melbourne marathon running along thinking about ice and penguins and running 42ks and how exciting that would be. Anyway, that was the one in Antarctica which wasn’t available. I found out about the North Pole marathon which was being run in April 2015. I was turning 50 at that stage and it was also our 25th wedding anniversary, and we decided that we would go to Paris we had always wanted to go to Paris to celebrate so it all tied in perfectly.
We’d be over in Europe we could catch the plane up to Svalbard and meet the other race competitors, all 44 of us. Then from there on rather very old Antonov aircrafts to fly up to the ice floe at the geographic North Pole. Every year there is a temporary research expedition based set up, and it lasts for six weeks. People arrive at the pole to go to trek to run to research. There we all were 44 competitors from all over the world, all completely decked out in our thermal year on our running shoes, and ready to run 12 laps around this research base. That was a total of 42Ks. It started out, it was a quiet, quite mild conditions minus 26.
Clear skies, the sun was trekking around the horizon as it does at that time of year, which is just so beautiful to watch. There are strategically placed snipers just in case a polar bear wanders across the course that they could definitely encourages you to run fast. You set off the start again, guys, and away you go. I just remember thinking, wow, my goodness, I’ve just turned 50. Here I am, I’m having an adventure, and I’m going to celebrate life. Each lap I had dedicated to, to somebody in my life, whether it was other women with ovarian cancer to my family, to different people.
That gave me just such wonderful inspiration and courage to keep going and the conditions changed. It dropped to minus 41, the wind picked up, it was bitterly cold. I persevered. I kept going. I felt strong. I all those things. I think you learn from going through an experience like having cancer, you build that courage and that resilience up, and you keep on going. It was fantastic. It took me a long time to run a lot more than a normal marathon. I did it in seven hours, 53 minutes and crossed the finish line in first place female, which was a wonderful surprise and a great celebration.
That’s so powerful. I love hearing that and I know this was obviously some time ago, they’ve done so many wonderful things. Congrats to doing that and getting the courage and making the decision to do that. I think you’ll find it’s so inspiring is that idea of taking the first step, because what I’m hearing you say is, it’s making a decision to try something out. It started with that early dam just wanted to get that first. That first round was I think it was fought for kilometers, starting with one thing and then going and building onto it and then seeing where life takes you, isn’t it?
It is, this Is it because in the process you grow and I did hear someone wants make a quote that there’s no such thing as failure, but it’s learning and, and what may be a difficult experience that you go through and perhaps you’re doubting yourself and you maybe you think well I haven’t done a very good job or I’m not up to scratch, I don’t measure up. No, put those doubts aside and give something a go and then you can adapt, if that doesn’t work out or if you don’t feel great, then adapt and you’ve learned through that situation.
You can always be moving forward and learning and feel that you you’re on a journey throughout life that you’re not just feeling that you’re staying in the one place and that you’re just embracing the things that that that happen and then just wanting to give back and make a difference in this world and that’s another thing that I love with my races that they’re a fantastic vehicle not only to raise awareness, but funds to help with cancer research and Cancer Support Services. That for me has just been this beautiful way of giving back and a new way of finding fulfillment in life. All that’s sort of unfolded over these last few years. That really means a lot to me.
That is so beautiful. I love hearing that and your incredible work you’re done and several funds as a health advocate. Tell me what’s inspired you to take that first step. How did it come about and, and also how did it feel to you?
I think I’ve always grown up, taking on what a lot of my parents’ qualities about giving back and being part of the community and carried those through. I think as I was recovering from Cancer and meeting those other women think and thinking, you know what, what difference can I make. Then when I started running, I thought this is this is a really great platform to be able to raise awareness about the signs and symptoms, so that men and women so that they can learn about those signs and symptoms about ovarian cancer.
Also, what’s the support services that there are available that you’re not alone and Ovarian Cancer Australia are fantastic with a lot of the resources, they have their support nurses, their resilience kit, which is a really comprehensive, informative kit that they post out to anyone who needs a kit like that, so that they can learn really great information about their condition. There’s a fantastic program called survivors teaching students where we actually are talking about our personal journey through a Varian cancer and talking to nurses and medical students.
For them to hear about this diagnosis from a living breathing person as opposed to a textbook scenario. It’s really quite profound. It’s a very emotional experience. It’s a way that we can feel that we’re making a difference. That for future patients who are diagnosed, that perhaps will make that diagnosis a lot easier for them that they can be diagnosed earlier, and really help with their care as well. It’s just finding those ways that I can give back is there, that main driver, and just you’re stepping out there and giving things a go, that’s how I just loved to tie in all those different things. Also, within my book as they’re talking quite openly about my cancer experience, so that that can be a terrific tool as well.
I love hearing that, because you’re such a given person even remember, I was I was just struck with the beginning of our conversation, because we did chat on the phone the other day, I remember like we were talking about what is the day’s going to look like and you said, I’m going to give a friend a lift for chemo, and I was really touched by that, because you’re just this shining example of giving back in whatever way it is that you can, which I think we all can do. It’s also not only about giving back in the sense that making a huge difference. By the way, I really love hearing about your survivors’ teaching students because it really transcends that learning experience, because we really are a team and we with our treating specialists, and we all work together. When they get to hear about lived experience, and not only here, but become immersed in what that’s like is you have a beautiful way of talking about your experience in your book, and in obviously, just sharing that out loud.
I think it’s so vital to connect for our nurses, for our doctors, for the surgeon for oncologist to really understand and what it feels like and what are the challenges that are facing you as a patient? What sort of things? How does your life transform and the challenges you might be facing as a survivor or a person living with cancer, because all of that is a completely different layer of what you can do. You also touched on how it makes you feel that you are given back. Can you let’s dive into that a little bit.
Giving back is vital, but I think what is often underrepresented perhaps is how it makes you feel like as a person who is doing something positive out in the world in whatever way that is for you. You’re just doing these amazing things. Other people just have different ways and we’re all sinners want to find that and bring that out. One of the people and I’m not ashamed to say that I think it’s transformative for you because you’re doing something that makes you feel like you belong to something greater. Talk about that. What’s it like for you and your world and how it makes you feel.
I do I feel so much more connected by putting myself out there and it can be on that one-to-one level, as you were saying, I went to pick up my friend from chemo and I always make sure that I’m available on a Monday afternoon so that I can be there and that we can go for a walk and have a coffee and talk about completely normal things. being there as a support and I get so much back from that as well that I feel that I’m helping her through this really tough time.
It’s also if you’re feeling that you’re able to change the landscape and change that conversation that’s happening and help with the education of younger women. I’m also part of a couple of Facebook groups so that we’re able to share amongst ourselves just so openly. It’s that sense of never being alone, that no matter what we’re going through, that we can connect with each other, that someone will always be there to support, whether it’s a little word or a very long conversation, or many long conversations that go on. I think it’s so important for us to all play a role and see what we can do, like take a step back going, Okay, what, what is the thing that I can do to help bring change here. if we can come up with ideas and step out there and make it make a difference.
Then what we get back is just so amazing, isn’t it? It just, it’s interesting, because we don’t go in wanting to think what I can get out of it. Boy, you get so much fulfillment and purpose, like it’s brought so much purpose into my life, being able to not only be an advocate, but to be out there perhaps different speaking engagements, raising, raising that awareness, knowing that I can keep being a voice that I can speak for those women who have sadly passed away from ovarian cancer, that I can be their voice to continue on and, and make that difference in that space. It’s just so many things that are that are wrapped up within that motivation, isn’t there? It definitely keeps me going.
When I’m doing events, in the Sahara Desert, I was running the marathon (inaudible 31:41), which is a long-distance race. It’s 250 kilometers in seven days out this desert. There are times you can imagine with those types of races, not everything goes to plan. there are moments where you just think, my blisters, or I’m just feeling so hot and tired, I just want to perhaps curl up under, under a rock if I can find one. It’s those times where you really do look, look within and find that comfort and that purpose and that drive and you think about those, those people that you’re doing it for and that spurs you on, you get back up again, and you finish that race and know that you’ve made a difference. It is all those things just tied up in a big bundle in our lives that, that give us that motivation and that joy and that hope.
Absolutely. I also love how you talk about that you describe it in such physical terms, because I think it helps us Exercise and Movement. Even that in itself is such a huge driver in reconnecting with our sense of being and who we are. You’re out there, you’re exposing yourself to these extreme elements. We’re all different. Some will not go out, right? Go for this incredible run-in sub-Saharan desert. We all have our ways to get in touch with our own bodies and, and whether that’s through yoga, whether that’s through meditation, whether that’s through some movement activity that helps us feel more alive. I think that’s such a huge part of life. After cancer, feeling more alive, more present more in the moment? More engaged? Like you said, it’s another chance of life, isn’t it?
It is it is. It’s such a defining moment where we suddenly think and look at things with new eyes, and we realized we want to be as healthy as we possibly can. we want to engage with as many people as we can make a difference. Trust our bodies again. I’m all for yoga and having an ocean swim and a walk. It just helps so much doesn’t it sit under a tree in a park to go and have a trek or look up at the mountains.
All those things just really fill our soul and fill our cup back up again. It’s about looking after our mental and emotional welfare as well. It’s all tied in together with our physicality, and to be kind to ourselves, and there will be days where we don’t feel as well as others and to listen to our bodies and perhaps just have that shorter walk or just to sit or write in our diary. To give ourselves that permission and be kind to ourselves and just in enjoy taking those that first breath in the morning, when we wake up and go this is a brand-new day and I’m grateful to be here. let’s see what this day will bring.
I’m so glad that you brought this up Have is like being kind to yourself. Sometimes when we we’ve been through a difficult time, isn’t this we’re so harsh to ourselves, right? I mean, it’s weird that sometimes we can be so kind to other people that sometimes we forget to be kind to ourselves, right? If you’re whose life has been touched by cancer and you want to make a difference in some way. You don’t really know where to start, what would you suggest to what are some of your thoughts around that?
Yes, I would make inquiries. Whatever cancer it is, whether you’ve had or a loved one has had, there are a lot of different foundations that are related to those particular cancers. I would say find out about them and see how you can get involved. There are a lot that need help with fundraising, don’t they perhaps organize events? To connect there be part of support groups, be advocates? There are lots of things that you can get involved with that way. Also, if you wanted to do your own fundraising, sign up for an event? Things like that. don’t doubt yourself think, how can I get involved?
Where can I bring some new value? Just get connected with other people and see how I can bring change? I think we’re all wanting to increase and improve those survival rates? Aren’t we for the different cancers that there are? presently, for ovarian cancer. It’s only 48% of women survive beyond five years, that every day five women are diagnosed here in Australia, and sadly, three women passed away. if we can somehow be a voice and help to bring change, improve those survival rates, but also improve the quality of those people diagnosed and their quality of life that he had, that will be a wonderful thing to get involved with to do.
That’s so beautiful. I think it comes back to what we touched on earlier, we talked about that, making that first step because you never know where those things are going to lead you. They’re going to expose you to different things about life, and you learn about yourself, and you learn about things that are important. they and, and we start to look at and pick up on different opportunities that perhaps were not there before. It’s so important to start somewhere, and then see where that takes you.
It’s that first step. it doesn’t have to be a big one. This is how I look at everything that I have encountered or taken on that it’s that first initial tiny step, and not to doubt yourself, but just take that first tiny step with an idea that you have. Then take another tiny step and another one, another one, and then you find yourself wow, actually, look where I am. I have achieved that, that first goal that I had, and then you can set bigger goals from there. You can bring people along with you. This is the thing, not to doubt yourself, or stop yourself from taking that first step. Just be happy.
Be okay with stepping out of your comfort zone and trying something new because you never know where it will take you. That is one of the beauties of life that from when you’re growing up, you can certainly take it to a completely different pathway when you’re older, that you don’t have to stay on the one pathway and be doing something that you expect that you will be doing for the rest of your life. You can take other little tangents in life, head off and do other things. It’s your one precious life that you have and to make the most of it. I would just say don’t hold yourself back. Take that first step whatever it is that you want to do in life, give it a go.
I know that hope is such a big part of your life. What does hope mean to you?
Hope for me means that that there is life beyond today, there is quality of life. That is something that if we can all share hope, then the future looks brighter, doesn’t it? If we can encourage other people in life that’s one of another motivating factors with my running that I love to encourage others to, to run or to get fit, and to show them that like I’m 57 now that you can be 57 and still get out there and run ultra-marathons that they’re there. The future does look good and bright., and yes, it’s all about living with that that positive mindset. I mean, certainly acknowledging that tough things happen. holding on to that hope within that gets us through those dark times those difficult and challenging times. Hope definitely is one of those words that I remember when I was waking up in, in recovery, after surgery, holding on to hope that everything would be okay, that we would get through this journey. Yes, that second chance of life would lead on and, yes, I would have another day.
So powerful, Heather. If somebody wanted to find out more about your book, and about everything that you do your adventurous spirit? Tell us? What would they do to find out more?
Yes. I’m on socials, Heather Adventurous Spirit on Facebook and on Instagram. Also, my book is available. All the hard copies have sold out. I have recorded it with Audible books. It’s available as an audible book with Audible.com. It’s also available as an eBook for Kindle or for other devices on Amazon and Booktopia. Book Depository. You can find it as an electronic version. I’m so excited to be able to share a copy with one of your listeners. That I was able to send to you, Joe and that that means the world.
Thank you so much for doing that. I’ll be putting that out on social media. I know our listeners can write in for their chance to get a heather Hawkins’s book, Adventurous Spirit to get your copy. Or go out and buy it or send me an email at Joe@Simplifycancer.com for your chance to get a hardcopy of Heather’s beautiful book with a handwritten inscription. Heather, thank you so much for being here. I want to also thank you not only for your time, and your insight, but also, I want to deeply thank you for the work that you do out in the world. Thank you so much.
Thank you so much, Joe, for the opportunity to share and thank you for all that you’re doing as well. You’re making a massive difference, since it’s so appreciated. Thank you.
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